Unclefester Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 I'm not tremendously impressed with the idea of running a naked toothed belt for an external oilpump. With the amount of grit and small stones lying about on the roads here in France (dunno about the UK, maybe they actually clear it when they surface roads but here they leave sweeping up to the tyres of passing cars) I think it's an invitaton to disaster. Imagine what happens if a stone goes between the toothed belt and the pulley. Yes, got it in one, you stand a very good chance of trashing the belt instantly. I think this has caused the death of several engines, including one of Peter Carmichaels, unless my memory is worse than I thought. Now it just seems to me rather peculiar that these belts run normally without what would be called a chaincase if it was on a motorcycle engine, and it strikes me that if Pace designed them for race use, this may be the explanation. No grit on race circuits, is there? Anyone ever driven a car into the kitty litter? Doesn't it end up everywhere? OK, I'll not labour the point any further. I'm going to make a proper 'belt case' for mine before it goes into the car. That way it has a fighting chance on French grit tracks....... BTW, has this been done before? Surely it MUST have...I'd rather buy one than prototype the thing! Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 I think no cover may be better than a cover which may retain small stones etc, problem making a cover will be getting the fitting close around the crank pulley. Not an easy choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 It's not particularly difficult, you use a sheet teflon or other rubber/plastic for the crank seal, and locate it to the backplate as a trial fit, with glue, then rivet it into final position, and the rest could be simply made from aluminium sheet. It would attach to the 4 bolts on the Pace pump behind its pulley, and have a stabilising bracket attaching to the front cover bolt above and left of the crank. Like this, you know it fits properly, and as it's a touch fit all around, it won't let anything through. In fact if anything miniscule did ping its way in if a tiny cIearance was left rather than a touch fit as with an oilseal, I reckon it would stay in the bottom of the case anyway..... It would be easy enough to make something that kept all grit out. As it is, anything ricocheting around in the front, as stones do, has a very reasonable chance of getting between the moving toothed belt and the pump pulley, which also just happens to be going in the correct direction to suck in the stone...... I know I would much rather the thing was protected. But then I've spent enough time in the kittylitter to know the stuff ends up in the oddest places. I've never had an exposed toothed belt on a race car though, and I frankly don't fancy risking it either. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 9 Jun 2007 19:16:43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 I run the Pace DS and put the Grad spec 1/2 undertray on it extendsback behind tge pump and allied with the sump gaurd effectively seals the front of the bay from imgress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 That's also what I'm doing with my Pace setup Darren E Website K80RUM and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 I run the Pace DS and put the Grad spec 1/2 undertray on it extendsback behind tge pump and allied with the sump gaurd effectively seals the front of the bay from imgress. ...as long as you go into the gravel-trap forwards... 😬 I don't have a DS, but I do have a bare cambelt. I started with the short undertray and extended it back so that it 'seals' around the sump much better. Some details here You won't want to build a full tray, but FWIW mine is held on with a handful of zip-ties - and I heartily-recommend this method of fixing. The original short undertray was held on with self-tappers. Nightmare. 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 Alcester Racing 7s Equipe™ 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 OK the undertray offers some protection, unless as Myles points out you happen to enter the KL backwards......NOT impossible as I'm here to testify having entered it at all imaginable angles myself in my Davrian during a period when it was spraying oil mist onto a back tyre.... Anyway, I am going to fabricate a closed 'belt case' which will fit under the small crank pulley for the Pace pump. I'll have the front and back plate either laser cut or HP waterjet cut from 1mm ally sheet, though it's a thing which might be suitable for carbonfibre, so maybe RiF might be interested. Anyone wanting one of the ally ones made up please press button now, so I know how many pieces to get cut....I have a buddy whose company cuts the jet supports for airbus and Boeing, so I think should be about able to handle this Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Would be interested but i've got a 2.3l Duratec and Pace setup.... R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Mike, if you can make an accurate template and send it, I can prob persuade my buddy it's worth doing....there are bound to be plenty of others...... (Based on the scenario...."Hi there, Mr nice new very pricey dry-sumped competition engine owner! Check this! See the little skinny belt there, that drives that oilpump? With this cheap and effective full enclosure belt case, you can protect yourself from trashing your engine, which is exactly what will happen if a stone gets between that whirling belt and that spinning pulley you see there! What's the downside? There isn't one that I know of.......you do have to fit it, of course, which means removing the crank pulley bolt, and the Pace pump bolt and pulley. With the two pulleys off, it's dead easy to fit...the 4 Pace pump bolts go through the little holes in the backplate, the outrigger bracket attaches to the lowere left cam front cover bolt! Very simple! What's that you say? "I'd rather risk trashing my engine, as it's more fun, and I need things to worry about?" Fine sir, I respect your right to have an opinion......." Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 11 Jun 2007 11:30:04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 could be interested Too young to be old ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Any more progress reports on this yet UncleF? I was trying to imagine how the belt cover 'covers' at the crank end - I'm guessing the back plate will sit behind the alternator pulley, rather than fit somehow between the alternator and drysump belt? As soon as you have any pics, do let us know! Darren E Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal mickey Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Instead of making a cover is it possible to make an infill piece,same width as the belt to fit inside the belt run,between the pulleys and stop stones/debrit entering 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I've run a Pace system for 3 yrs inc across USA I also run an uncovered cam belt I think your making a mountain out of an molehill IMHO. I know a fair few who do similar BUT if it gives you peace of mind who am I to stop you. jj N.I. L7C AR 🙆🏻 Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I like your idea metal mickey- effective and simple, with the beauty of being very easy to retrofit I'm sure you're right JJ - Given the number of Pace owners, the amount of time the setup's been around now and the accumulated miles everyone must've done, the odds of it happening must be extemely low (am I right in saying there's NO reported cases of belt damage caused like this?) it certainly helps as a new adopter, to hear things going well, but as you say - peace of mind and a fairly easy method of reducing the chances even further. To be honest, it's hopefully only going to be of any real benefit if you enter the kitty litter. Darren E Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I've run the Pace external pump on my Duratec for over 2 years now and never had any problems, I have got an piece of ali under the front that extends back to the front of the engine. This provides some protection. The only pump belt I've ever seen go was Miraz's when he (both of us in fact!) came across some unmarked road works in France and the road was covered in large stones/rocks which shredded his belt. Even then he was able to kill the engine in time, fit a new belt and head straight off. Cheers Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Edited by - rgrigsby on 3 Aug 2007 12:05:56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted August 4, 2007 Author Share Posted August 4, 2007 Far be it from me to argue the precautionary principle.......the problem is, everything may well be fine for years, up till the one time you are unlucky enough to get something in the belt, as happened to Miraz, for one. ISTR Peter Carmichael lost his amazing K engine which produced some phenomenal power until something went pear shaped with a belt/stone/birdstrike (can't recall exactly what it was now but maybe Peter will be along soon to remind me) I'm also intending to mount a Hall sender on this belt cover so I can have auto ignition cutoff if I want. I don't trust my ability to see an idiot light telling me I have 4 seconds max to switch off otherwise my very nice motor blows.....but then I'm just a total wuss and blind with it! *smokin* Also, the concept "Kitty litter" and "Pace external DS pump" do sort of seem to go, how can I say this, together, not entirely unlike chalk and, er, blackboard? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted August 4, 2007 Author Share Posted August 4, 2007 Oh yes, ask yourself also why the DS system developed for the MGF Cup series cars has such a well engineered cover for its external drive toothed belt, and why all Pace systems destined for rally use, Dakar whatever offroad use allways have a full belt case? Still, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" as Doris Day used to say... 😶🌫️ Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Any more progress on the belt cover Unclefester? Darren E Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share Posted August 11, 2007 Yesindeedy, trial fit happened this morning. We discovered thet the Pace pump front is very eccentric and asymmetric, unfortunately this means a slight retouch to the thing, it will be ready when I get back from Corsica on the 30th. Better be, as the SV engine is still sat on bench, and we are hoping to use it for the 50th Norfolk party! It's not anodised, due to the fact that the batch anodisation my buddy does is (in his words) a deeply unpleasant blue. I will be painting the alloy surround and back plate in satin black, and the front is perspex. The two seals (pump axis and crank) are in teflon. The good thing is, the thing fitted perfectly apart from the cockup with the way the Pace pump is made....I hadn't removed the Pace pulley when we measured up, and in fact the 4 bolts are NOT in a square orientation, they are a bit off the square, and the axis is also eccentric. This is now being sorted out. If anyone would like one of these, please indicate now so I can gezt some idea of interest. We will probably make the main case frame in waterjet cut plastic, as it's cheaper than using 1 1/2" thick aluminium sheet. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Do you have any pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 I'll indicate my interest I'd be keen to see some pics too as well Darren E Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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