sump foam

[Fathead]

Just for everyone's information:

 

Following my recent head gasket failer. I have removed the sump and found my sump foam completely disintergrated. Blocking the oil pick up pipe and some in the no. one bearing.

 

I phoned caterham because I only changed the foam 2 months ago and was wondering why this happen.

 

Apparently the anitfreeze in the collant causes this to happen....

 

 

Tom The most southerly uk blatter

😬Yellow 1.6 Supersport 😬 Photos here

[Frying Pan]

 

 

Edited by - 7heavensoon on 7 Aug 2006 15:11:03

[Tom_C]

I know Myles had foam last even less that that, without coolant anywhere near it, and I find their explanation highly unlikely. The sump is coming off mine tonight, and there won't be any foam when it goes back on.

 

 

Cheers

 

Tom

 

FH54WLX - only the car supports ManU, honest!

 

see here - UPDATED

[Miura]

fathead: are they implying that your foam disintegrated as a consequence of the HGF and that this was not a cause

 

In normal circumstances there is no reason why that foam should be in contact with coolant, is there?.

However, another club member at least (was it myles) experienced "melted" foam due to using mineral oil for run-in periods IIRC ...

 

it is the first time I hear of foam disintegrating after an HGF 🤔

 

 

[Fathead]

I was assured that the oil would not do this - (5w-50 fully syn motorsport oil btw)

 

I cannot comment whether the foam disintergrated before the hgf or not as i had not removed the sump since the last oil change (2/3 months ago)

 

I was told it is 'definately' a cause of the chemicals in the collant, whether this is true or not is a different matter...

 

 

Tom The most southerly uk blatter

😬Yellow 1.6 Supersport 😬 Photos here

[Dave H]

James Whiting had a theory that switching between synthetic and mineral oil (or the other way round) causes the foam to go brittle and disintegrate. I haven't spoken to him for some time, so don't know if he's tested it out, but it sounds like whats happened to yours.

 

Dave H

[Fathead]

I haven't run with mineral oil though??

 

didn't seem to be brittle just soft!

 

Tom The most southerly uk blatter

😬Yellow 1.6 Supersport 😬 Photos here

[oilyhands]

There appear to be two modes of failure

 

Complete dissolution/meltdown ; cited cause coolant contamination

Crispy seaweed brittle foam breakdown with resulting blockage of pickup pipe

 

IMO the foam is the spawn of beelzebub.

 

Whenever I post warnings there are always replies saying that a particular owners foam hasnt broken up so there isnt a problem, however the success of a particular system is not measured by the number of times it is shown to work, but by the number of failures and their consequences.

 

Oily

[Tom_C]

Oily, if I'm ditching the foam, should I modify the sump gasket too, and if so can I do that with a used gasket?

 

Cheers

 

Tom

 

FH54WLX - only the car supports ManU, honest!

 

see here - UPDATED

 

Edited by - Tom_C on 7 Aug 2006 17:04:27

[Mike Molloy]

The sump foam on my old car broke up and caused the engine to seize during only the second race outing in the hands of the new owner. Given my religious oil-change schedule and use of Comma full-synth I was shocked and gutted for Mark.

If the foam breaks down under the influence of different oils, surely it is unfit for purpose?

Or should Caterham recommend a sponge change every 100 track miles?

[Corkheader]

Do all Caterhams have foam in the sump? Mines a 1.6 VX, obviously a little concerned with whats been written here.

 

Regards

 

John

[John Howe]

Having seen Tom's foam baffle, or what was left of it, I cannot find comfort in CC comments.

 

Whilst we all run on fully synthetic oil, this is certainly not the case after an engine rebuild, where first choice would be for a bog standard mineral oil for the running in period. I can't but believe this problem is manufacture related and perhaps the answer is to do away with the foam and replace the baffle retain plate with a full size (sump that is) sheet of perforated ali.

 

What was left of the baffle wasn't brittle but more like soggy seaweed in a Chinese restaurant, endlessly breaking into even smaller pieces as it was collected.

 

... and if CC comments are true, then the foam broke down within the 2 miles that Tom limped home. More importantly, Adam Quilter and Thomas Rosselle had better get there cars back here PDQ, as both had head gaskets blow and replaced but we never looked in the sump!

 

 

JH

Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 230bhp Sausage delivery machine

[Unclefester]

I saw 'foam' written on the side of my SV sump!!!

 

I assume it's some sort of antisurge measure, but WHY in gods name are CC using something so unproven?

 

I assume this isn't something used on Rovers?

 

So, what's best to do? Drop the sump and heave this muck out? I'm supposedly going on holiday in the SV Saturday, I'd be happier without the possibility of suddenly finding the engine is sucking up synthetic seaweed bits!

 

I'm running SEMI-sythetic oil on a K1600.

 

I'm amazed nobody's been in receipt of a letter from m'learned friends about this.......

 

🙆🏻 ❗ *mad*

 

NICE PLATE!!!

😬 😬here *eek*

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 7 Aug 2006 19:00:45

[Fathead]

Just in case anyone was wondering, i have been using the standard caterham coolant as thats what caterham supplied me with... think its called comma coldstreme red.

 

Amazingly, although caterham seem to know about this issue i don't recall them making this public (i.e. shouldn't there be a very clear warning if you have HGF)

 

Perhaps we should make a sticky warning the dangers of HGF and foam - anyone know how to do this?

 

Tom The most southerly uk blatter

😬Yellow 1.6 Supersport 😬 Photos here

[John Howe]

UF, there must be various manufactures used over a period of time to supply this material or why elso should the problem appear and disappear.

 

JH

Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 230bhp Sausage delivery machine

[Myles]

I know Myles had foam last even less that that, without coolant anywhere near it, and I find their explanation highly unlikely

 

Yep, mine died within roughly 70-miles judging by the first OP drop.

 

Mine did the sludgy thing - and coolant could easily have been the culprit (possible unseated liner / chipped base during the original build and an attempt to use the std. plastic manifold and gasket on a head with larger ports than standard.

 

The engine was also running in on the cheapest 0% synthetic oil I could find of the correct viscosity.

 

Anyway, something caused it to fail in a shorter distance than I'd call a true blat (up here in Scottingland). That's scary.

 

Project Scope-Creep is live...

 

Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™

 

Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

---

[Englishmaninwales]

My new 1800 engine has been absolutely thrashed for 12k miles, including quite a few sprints/hillclimbs and trackdays, without the foam and no problem. I do have the sump gasket modification and a Hellier baffle ( of questionable benefit). So I suggest you can safely throw away your foam.

[bobt]

What is this sump gasket modification I keep reading about?

 

Rob

[Paul McKenzie]

Why doesn't someone with access to some basic chemical lab. equipment....and I'm not volunteering for this as I haven't such access.....just do a quick scientific study on this...i.e. reflux samples of the foam in mineral oil, synthetic oil and coolant...you'd have the answer in a week, instead of all this speculation ......however, being a speculator 😳, as well as a reformed research scientist, I'd be really surprised if mechanical damage didn't figure greatly in the equation.

 

Paul

[Mickrick]

I read somewhere that the foam was to stop windage from the spinning crank.

[Colin Mill]

I'm starting to wish I had taken the foam out when I changed the oil last week. Given the frequency with which Ks mix up their fluids someone at CC must be eight octares mahogany from the neck up to build in a component that is going to break up when this happens - doubly so for not making it very clear to all customers that it happens.

[Mickrick]

Well at the rate the faces are changing at CC the'll be gone soon anyway. 😬

[Myles]

FWIW, the foam will sit quite happily in neat EG coolant at room-temp for months and months and months without visibly degrading.

 

Mind you, this sample of foam wasn't from the one that dissolved - and my bedroom isn't awash with 80-degree C oil...

 

Project Scope-Creep is live...

 

Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™

 

Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

---

[Unclefester]

OK guys,....Can someone please explain what these references to "modified sump gaskets" are all about? Also, what / where is a Hellier baffle?

 

This sounds like a very serious mess, if CC have been supplying cars with engines modified in a way that can cause oil pickup blockage and not coming clean about it, which is how I read this, then something is very amiss.

 

SO....WHAT TO DO?

 

I for one would like to know exactly what needs to be done to remove the possibility of this beelzebub spawn clagging my poor engine up.

 

I would be fascinated to know who'se bright idea it was to use this muck in the first place, if it's ever been used in another engine, by another manufacturer, and if so which , and when, and with what results.

 

If it's to prevent "oil windage" as has been suggested, why isn't this neccessary on all the other quintillian 4 stroke Otto cycle engines happily polluting the atmosphere, I ask myself?

 

And why isn't it neccessary on a Rover 214 or whatever they are, or a Rover K series MGF?????????????

 

So....Oily, you seem to imply that you've spoken/posted plenty on this subject, but I've only become aware of a problem today, so what do YOU suggest is the best thing to do?

 

 

 

 

NICE PLATE!!!

😬 😬here *eek*

[Colin Mill]

Hi Myles

 

I don't think Xstream red is based on Ethylene glycol - I wonder if this could be significant.