Jump to content
Click here if you are having website access problems ×

Winter Project - Titan LSD project


CtrMint

Recommended Posts

Hello All,

I’m posting this thread to hopefully seek long term engagement and support for what will be a long term winter project.

Some will think my approach is a bit well expensive, I guess it is, but for ease, convenience and the opportunity to learn I’ve gone this route. 

While in the UK for the Taffia FnC run I placed an order with CC for delivery to the in-laws for a complete new Titan diff. I know expensive! Now I don’t believe my Titan has any immediate issues, well no more than it ever had. The current and original diff has done ~4500miles and will clock up the best part of ~5000 total miles by the time I’m back to the IOM. I figured with all the discussions about the Titan diff I’m getting close to a period of potential concern and risk. If so, having confidence the diff is right is important, especially if enjoying the IOM liberal speed limits. The 420R still hasn't seen a circuit, but it's seen high speeds.

I appreciate I could just remove the diff, check it, and ship it for a rebuild if required. Shipping heavy stuff on and off the IOM is an expensive PITA, and fraught with the potential for damage and loss. Hence placing the order for a new one while in the UK, one which I can collect. More than that though is having the opportunity to have a spare while rebuilding the first. This makes the whole process less stressful and gives me a real opportunity to learn at a leisurely pace.

Over the winter I plan to disassemble the rear of the car, remove the diff, drive shafts and prop shaft plus all the other components which need to come off for easy access. I'll thoroughly check the shafts etc, and refit with the new diff. This places no time pressure to rebuild with the original diff, so I can still enjoy the car while attempting to expand my understanding.

I hope to learn more about the diff, spotting signs of poor wear from within by performing some basic dismantling. If it needs to go away then I can when I have time etc.

I'm convinced there's a plethora of lowly skilled owners out there in the same boat as me, with aging Titan (sintered plate) diffs all wondering how bad is bad. Of course this will make good content for my blog, which has always attempted to cover the build and challenges of ownership from the less technically competent side. There's loads of blogs out there with content that is far superior (technically) to my own. Bringing the experience from my position on the learning curve I'm sure will be beneficial to many others.

Of course I'll keep posting here with updates and the inevitable queries, a sort of (re)build thread.

I hope this will be of interest to you all, especially those I hope will provide input and expertise along the way.

PS

If anyone get recommend good reading material on diffs (installs, tolerances etc etc). I won't be starting until November, so have a month or so to learn what I can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 174
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Having a second diff is never a bad idea and I think you'll not regret it. I doubt you'll find anything wrong with your diff but if you wish to replace parts like the springs as a precaution, be aware that all parts are available individually from Titan, so you don't need to buy an overhaul kit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, 

Yes it's for the 420.   I was aware other options existed, but wasn't sure what to make of them.  In the end I opted to get a second Titan.  I figured understanding what CC is doing, the reliability and durability of that design/package might be more interesting and beneficial in the long run.  I can still try changes and improvements to my original diff.

I got into this Caterham stuff to learn.   To  learn and become a better driver on circuit I wasn't getting better in the Exige, but also to learn on the mechanical engineering side.  Admittedly the mechanical learning curve has been a bit challenging, we're getting there though.  Getting a different solution, which might diminish my opportunity to learn just didn't feel the right direction.

Either way, the diff arrived today at the in-laws 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh Mark, I can't but fear you have made a big mistake. 

My SPC diff has been in over a year now. It's always operated as silently as you could expect. No untoward noises at all and has been impeccable on the road, allowing liberties to be taken powering out of corners and just making the car take off in a straight line like a rocket. 

Tuesday my son and I did a track day at Snet. I drove first before it got too wet and the car was better than I'd hoped for. As the track got wetter I chose discretion as the better part etc  (especially as we only have ZZRs) and handed over to my son, who's raced various things over the years, from karts to sports cars, F Renault, F3 and is much more confident in the wet. 

The car drives through and out of corners far more consistently and reliably than it ever did, and we are convinced the SPC works better than the Titan ever did, not to mention it seems to be a whole lot more reliable. 

I have a BMW diff with a Titan sat on my shelf. Fully rebuilt at a cost of £900 and unused since. I'd happily clear the shelf for £1k because I just can't see me ever fitting it again. 

"I figured understanding what CC is doing, the reliability and durability of that design/package might be more interesting and beneficial in the long run."

What is it that you think CC is doing? From what I've been told they're doing nothing except making money on rebuilds and spares, but I stand to be corrected. 
 
They've known about the weakness of the Titan in higher powered cars used mainly on the road for some time and have been offered the SPC but gone no further. There's no evidence that they will, I'm not sure they think it's an issue. Which it isn't for them. 

Oh well, we've been here before, it is what it is. in a way it's good that you've got two assemblies because you'll likely need them, it's just, IMHO, not necessary. 
 

PS. I know there are some who think the Titan is fine and have had good service from them. I'm one of the few who have experienced both it and the SPC and, as Jack Reacher might say, I'd never go back!! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Come on guys, quit the scary fake info stuff.  It's not a question of making a 'mistake', or not choosing a 'proven' design (what??). The Titan has been in production for ten years and there are thousands of units out there giving excellent service in many cars as well as the Caterhams.  Yes the carbon plate development was problematic, but the sintered plate version gives the competition a good run for their money, and is probably better matched to the Caterham's requirements in terms of rotating mass and ramp options (if you look at the history, it was basically designed for the Caterham).

CtrMint is correct in his assumption (that if Caterham continues to use it) it is of sound design - to promote otherwise is being incredulous towards the facts.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So had very recently first hand experience, my diff has only just been refitted ready for the Fish and Chip run.  A couple of things to note, my 2 year old, only 2000 mile (2 track days) diff had NO significant wear.  In fact the only wear was the new plate high spots had been taken off, there was no need for any service work to be carried out on the clutches.  

The reason for my diff removal was to solve a reoccurring noise/vibration problem which had been present from new. This was eventually traced to a bad UJ, so hence the diff was already removed.

One recommended is not to separate your wheel bearings from the driveshafts, if you do you will almost certainly end up replacing both.  If you are assembled new driveshafts and wheel bearings try using bearing anti fretting paste, but even then there is no guarantee fretting won't occur. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From my Titan carbon plate diff experience, I would say the carbon plate wear is possibly the biggest culprit requiring premature service (excessive plate wear may also cause the Belleville washers to move out of their normal optimum range, inducing fatigue cracking), although I did still get over 30,000km out of the original carbon plates with some very hard use (such as well over 100 5,000RPM+ starts with relatively wide slicks on the rear, for autocross runs).

The Titan internals and plates have been used in a wide range of classic Ford cars, I expect that there is a significantly larger install base outside the Caterham one, but I don't see any longevity discussion elsewhere on the Internet. Time will tell with my sintered plate rebuild, I expect 2,000km of hard track use each year going forward, so we will see in a few years time, with it being easier to check oil contamination now that I've threaded a drain hole in the bottom of the diff casing for a magnetic drain plug.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Leadership Team

Mark

I would echo the line of thought that you should be looking to a Tracsport LSD from Steve Perks at SPC, near Redditch. 

In my R500D (so not so different from your 420) I had a failure of the Bellevile washers that meant I lost all LSD functionality.  On stripping, to our (mine and Steve's) surprise we found that my diff was, like yours, fitted with sintered plates and not the carbon ones.  They looked pretty much unused - but the point is that a failure elsewhere in the diff (the Belleviles) meant that the diff was rendered unserviceable and, also, that this failure also explained the as-new plate condition.  It seems to me that whilst the Titan diff concept is fine in the physically larger Ford Sierra final drive, the design is fundamentally compromised (and inadequate for function) in the smaller BMW diff unit.

Honestly, I would 110% urge you to change your order with CC and ask them to ship a bare/open diff to Steve at SPC and ask him to fit one of his Tracsport LSD's to it.  You will not regret doing that!

James

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Titan diff concept is fine in the physically larger Ford Sierra final drive, the design is fundamentally compromised (and inadequate for function) in the smaller BMW diff unit.

All the Titan LSD moving parts in the BMW 168 and Sierra 7" diff are exactly the same. It is the same rebuild kit for both: https://titanexpress.co.uk/products/lsd-rebuild-kit?variant=32355122020434

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys, 

I feel like I've inadvertently reopened Pandora's box, specifically the debate over the Titan and that wasn't my intention.  I do appreciate your support and guidance, but I'm going to stick with the direction I've taken.  CC have actually delivered the diff too.  

A large portion of what I'm looking to do is learn, and while the Tracsport maybe more reliable it's not going to provide a like for like comparison and opportunity to learn.  Over time I'd hope to be sufficiently experienced to truly understand some of the technicalities some of you have mentioned. Ultimately I may also end up agreeing, the Titan is only suitable as a large paperweight, but I want to reach that decision for myself through understanding.  

Could we avoid the discussion over which is best and how bad the Titan might be, I will need your assistance, but focussed on the disassembly and evaluation.  Hope you don't mind.

One thing that does confuse me, if the diff is so bad, why aren't the competitors in the Caterham UK series up in arms etc.  Surely they're having a bad experience too. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

maybe becaus they use the Ford 7" and not titan

The race units with the Sadev sequential are using the Ford 7" diff which has the Titan LSD in it (same as the 620R, AFAIK), This has exactly the same Titan LSD moving parts in it (plates, shims, Belleville washers, spider gears, side rings) as used in the BMW 168 diff, only the mounting flanges for the crown wheel and side bearings and spline configuration in the side gears is different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a 100% with you on the learning bit. Much better to do that from the real thing than pay too much attention to one person's opinion, or another. All mechanical devices can fail from time to time, and someone's bad experience needs to be seen in context. 

In terms of the race cars, there's simply isn't a durability issue in the race environment. The limited slip bit (the clutch bit) works very much harder when the car is driven gently. Race cars that are cornering at high throttle use slipping tyres to provide the differential action. The differential is locked up and is pretty much doing nothing in a race. You could race the cars with welded up diffs and they'd drive pretty much the same. LSD's are really about allowing a differential action at low speed and low power - that's when they are working hardest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The slow speed LSD usage with no tyre slip is more wearing than when the diff is fully locked, but the plates are only clamped with the preload clamping force in that case and there is no movement of the Belleville washers. To get the plates to be fully locked with the full clamping force there has to be enough torque on the spider gears from differential movement to walk them up the ramps on the side rings to pressurise the plates beyond the preload. In hard use the slippage of the plates may be brief until the tyres break lose, but the forces are much higher and change more violently at the plates and Belleville washers until both wheels are turning at the same speed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whilst there is most slippage at low torque inputs, the LSD works hardest at WOT in low gears this is when it is subjected to maximum torque, slippage on a road car should not adversely affect wear and durability providing the design is correct.

Please consider that the preload on these is significantly lighter than that of tintops which frequently cover very high mileages without issue,

also consider the permissible movement of the pack in this design and its affect on the bellevilles which regularly fail, the area of the clutch plates, this affects durability and impacts upon operation, the increased area allows for a softer engagement and much better transition.

Please don't fail into the trap of believing all items on our cars had been thoroughly tested before being used and put into production as sadly this is simply not true, from your point Mark you have already encountered radiator problems with poor quality units and badly engineered mountings which you have had to rework, and then there's the 620 cooling system...... there are many examples of 'let the customer do the testing for us'.....

Perosnally I'd be returning the unit to CC and over the winter send your final drive to Steve for a Tracsport, leaving you more time and money to enjoy your car.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as Mark is concerned I wouldn't be at all surprised if when he strips his Titan he finds it 'serviceable'. It's not done many miles and is likely to have sintered plates. (Based on the age of it and the noise it makes)

I may be wrong but I think Mark is looking for a way to stop his diff clunking and knocking, which, as he has shown in the past, is a problem. I've seen the videos he's posted and it clunks and bangs like mine did, which was unacceptable to me, but is no longer an issue with the Tracsport. 

I've been chatting to Steve P this morning. More than 100 7s now fitted with Tracsports with happy owners. The proof of the pudding etc........

Anyway, each to their own. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Area Representative

I do not intend to become absorbed by this post or offer extensive counter arguments after BMW/Titan LSD Viability | Lotus Seven Club (lotus7.club)

Suffice to say that the carbon plated variety of Titan was of 'chocolate tea pot' quality. A bomb waiting to go off at whatever mileage it decides. Low or high.

The sintered plate Titan appears to be far more resilient but the other internals not so as in the carbon variety.

The Titan though used extensively by CC & other vehicle manufacturers is by the admission of the RR transmissions web site built to an affordable budget. Make of that what you will.

The SPC LS unit is a quantum leap up from the Titan & after a year of use cannot fault it. Only time & mileage will tell !

I am happy with the decision that I made to go the SPC way. Every time I drive the car reinforces it.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may be wrong but I think Mark is looking for a way to stop his diff clunking and knocking, which, as he has shown in the past, is a problem

I'm not attempting to solve the clunking, I've accepted the noise, while excessive, they all do that.. right. Mine has been confirmed as the sintered plate one, which apparently accounts for the higher lefts of annoyance.

I figured 5000 miles, the diff needs maintenance, either preventative or remedial, I'm not sure which.  So time to remove it and assess.  I want to be more self sufficient, as I mentioned shipping on and off island is expensive and a PITA.  To that end I'm putting a new one in for the next 5k while I learn/assess the current one.  I think that's being lost in the thread.  I want to compare like for like, I think its better to learn. 

The learning thing is really important here,  Today for example, I've screwed up some how.  The wife and I started the Taffia FnC run however, we didn't make it to Aberdovey.  Having fun through the Black Mountain pass my steering moved a spline.  I recently did some maintenance on the top steering bush, and some how screwed something up.  I had the torque wrench out on all the bolts so not sure what I've done. (we did stop and i hung on the uj nut)  The point is, I need to get better...  It's cost me some fish n chips today,  (we didn't carry on as I'd little confidence in the steering and didn't want to be a slow obstacle for everyone else and ruin their day).

If the process is more expensive, and even if I end up long term with an SPC diff, that's fine so long as I gain knowledge.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...