Odyssey PC680 drained by CTEK MSX 5 - Error stage 5

[Phillip Meyer]

Hello,

My 620s has been sitting unused for a month or so (all of October and maybe a week or two either side) and not connected to a charger. However, I bought a CTEK MSX 5.0 charger last week and connected it on Sunday pressing mode so that the 'car' and 'AGM' modes were shopwing. The battery had charge when I connected it (I foolishly didn't look but it was showing a strong 14V while charging) and it went straight through stages 1 to 4 in a few moments (seconds I think).

I thought that all would be good, I had connected the CTEK via the little snap adaptor that comes with it so that I screwed the two cables into the battery permanently and have a little connector coming off. The cables are definitely connected the right way around (red to red) and I don't get any error on power up/connection.

However I have just looked at the car 24 hours later (as I have a track day on Wednesday) and suddenly, since being connected to the CTEK the battery is has been completely drained to nothing. It's totally dead. I can't understand why the CTEK would drain the battery to nothing even if there was a fault with the battery but I really don't understand how it works compared to a 'normal' charger.

I have reconnected the charger again and will leave it overnight and check it in the morning.

Worst case scenario, I can try and buy a new battery but I'm worried about being able to source one the same day (in Kent or nearby). Having read throug the forum I have seen other suggestions to perhaps jump start from another car and let it run. I have also seen some suggestions to put it in a different mode (perhaps 'AGM RECOND') but here I'm not sure.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should do but also what caused this (perhaps leaving to drain it has damaged it) or is the CTEK causing the problem?

Thanks so much, Phillip.

[Jonathan Kay]

More details, please:

How old is the battery?

How do you know that it has been "drained to nothing"?

Which charger lights came on when you connected the charger the second time?

Do you have a multimeter?

Have you got another battery or car you can use to jump this one?

And please can you add a photo of the connections.

Jonathan

PS: I once had a CTEK charger which had failed. Took me months to work out what was happening... because the lights came on appropriately and then changed in the usual sequence. 

[Jonathan Kay]

"I can try and buy a new battery but I'm worried about being able to source one the same day (in Kent or nearby)"

I try to keep this thread up to date "Whats the best battery these days".

Jonathan

[Phillip Meyer]

I don't know how old the battery is, possibly since the car was built but I have no way to tell (this is the very first ever 620s so could be as old as 2015 but I don't know).

When I say drained to nothing, I have a little USB socket with a voltmeter on it attached to where the lighter socket used to be. That was the only thing on the car that seemed to have any power today and it was showing 00 (it's strange that had power as absolutely nothing else did). Nothing lit up, even slightly when I put the key in and turned it.

Incidentally I do not have a power isolation switch (for racing) so I haven't isolated the car by accident.

I also have not disconnected the car from the battery, everything is still connected.

This evening I reconnected the charger and it lit up with the car and AGM lights then went from step 1 to 4 within a few moments (seconds maybe, definitely less than a few minutes, I wasn't sitting watching). Is this odd if the battery was totally dead. Looking at the manual it seems to me that it should be slowly charging across stages 2 to 3 (although the manual is so vague), if it was totally dead that would suggest to me that those stages should have taken a lot longer?

I do have a good multimeter, I haven't used it to check the battery but can, what should I check for?

I will send photos shortly, it's all locked up in my barn (no lights) and V dark, will try with the phone flash. The CTEK is brand new but doesn't mean it isn't a part of the problem.

Thanks.

[Roadsport06]

Get the multimeter across the battery to read the voltage. I would be surprised if the voltage is 0 V. A smart charger is likely to not charge if the voltage is very low so an old fashioned charger is likely to be needed to get it going. I'd do that for an hour then swap to the smart charger to see if it is going into a charge mode and then into its conditioning mode. The multimeter reading when charging will help indicate what's going on

[ChrisC]

The fact it goes to stage 5 suggests the battery is ready to use (stage 4).  I think if it was my car, I would disconnect the battery from the car to remove one of the variables.  Check the battery with a multimeter (as already stated), and try again with the AGM reconditioning setting.  At least with the battery disconnected you are down to charger or battery being the problem.

[Jonathan Kay]

Same thought as those above:

00 is very suggestive of something other than a shot battery... bust voltmeter, bad connection...

Check the battery voltage with the the multimeter at rest and as you switch the charger on.

Jonathan

[Jonathan Kay]

"... an old fashioned charger is likely to be needed to get it going."

Definitely worth trying.

And you can do something similar by jump starting from another battery or vehicle.

As soon as the you've got the engine running check the battery voltage at 3,000 rpm. If isn't charging normally then you need to know asap.

Jonathan

[Phillip Meyer]

It was in stage 5 BUT showing the error/warning light so something had failed. 

So, I have put it into CAR - AGM - RECOND mode and will leave it overnight.

It was in CAR - AGM and had 11.8 volts (from the little volt meter in the car) when I disconnected it to switch modes (just now, not earlier when it was dead).

Also, note that the car had power before I added the CTEK. It seems to me that something failed and then the CTEK drained the battery but I'm not sure why/how as I don't understand how it works.

I will have a look in the morning and check it with my multimeter if it has failed again.

A few images attached below...

 

This is what the charger was showing just now when it was charging in CAR-AGM mode, when disconnected it read 11.8v

Now it is in CAR - AGM - RECOND mode and will leave it overnight...

[Billy.Whizz]

I thought the AGM mode was only meant for stop/start batteries. 

[Jonathan Kay]

AGM mode is for Absorbent Glass Mat batteries including that Odyssey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery#Absorbent_Glass_Mat_(AGM)
https://www.ctek.com/uk/battery-chargers-12v-24v/mxs-5-0-uk

Jonathan

[Peter G]

My MXS does this sometimes on my old fashioned lead acid Banner battery. Like others say putting it on a traditional battery charger usually does the trick. Another time I've had to jump start it as it seems the battery gets stuck in its charging cycle. Whenever I leave it unused for a few days or weeks I now disconnect both battery terminals. The battery will come in the house this winter. Banners are notoriously short lived if not used very regularly so I'd like this one to last another year if poss.

[Jonathan Kay]

"The battery will come in the house this winter."

NB The Banner battery is unsealed so make sure that any acid doesn't go anywhere that it shouldn't. I once made a right Jackson Pollock of the back seat of a Polo because I forgot about this.

Jonathan

[Phillip Meyer]

So this morning the charger has made it to stage 6 (which seems to be reconditioning) without errors and that was after about 10 hours. I had to just head out so will check on it when I get home. I think I will buy jump leads but not sure whether to just buy a new battery, not sure how I can test the battery to be sure it will hold a charge today?

[Jonathan Kay]

In the absence of proper load testing equipment... once it's recovered I suggest measuring the battery voltage with the multimeter:

• At rest
• Minimum seen during cranking (whether it starts or not)
• At 3,000 rpm.

and posting the values here.

Jonathan

[Jonathan Kay]

"I think I will buy jump leads but not sure whether to just buy a new battery"

I carry fat jump leads in all our vehicles at all times.

I'd also consider a lithium battery jump start pack. They're useful for all sorts of things. I wouldn't recommend carrying one routinely as an alternative to sorting out the Seven's electrics, but it might provide some reassurance and will get you home in the meantime.

Jonathan

[Phillip Meyer]

Is this what you mean from Halfords, might get one just incase I have problems tomorrow...

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/battery-maintenance/jump-starters/halfords-advanced-lithium-jump-starter---up-to-2l-677444.html

or maybe this is better...

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/battery-maintenance/jump-starters/gb40-1000a-noco-jump-starter-721898.html

[Phillip Meyer]

Hi,

All seems good now, all lights green and sitting happily at stage 7. Perhaps the RECOND setting has fixed it? I'm going to go to Halfords and buy the biggest lithium jump pack I can find, just in case.

Here is what the multimeter read:

CTEK disconnected, all power off: 13.5v

Cranking: 10v

(It took about 6 goes to start because it's very cold right now)

idle: 14.47v

3,000 rpm: 14.8v

(after revving it is sitting happily at 14.8v)

I am nervous to put it on the CTEK again this evening as I has to start tomorrow, fingers crossed. Still tempted to just try and buy a new battery, just in case.

 

 

[David_Long]

These are gel batteries and don't always behave as typical lead acid batteries do. Somewhere Odyssey document a recovery process to overcome a type of 'memory' problem that makes them produce a higher open circuit voltage than their state of charge should produce. This can trick intelligent chargers to report faults or stop charging.  IIRC (we use them in Mini racing) if they are left in  a partially charged state for a long period, they need a simple (old fashioned) CCCV type supply for several hours to get them back to normal behavior.

[Piers300]

There are battery chargers of many different types.

1) Standard battery charger provides a constant voltage and current. So when charging, you may see 14.2 volts or so at the battery terminals. They often have high and low settings switch, so this will set the voltage charge level, which won't change. The current level is either pre-set or adjustable by a switch. Either way, once fully charged, it continues to provide the high amps and volts that are now not needed, so if left unattended, will over time boil the battery.

2) Constant Potential (Automatic) Chargers. The constant potential charger provides a charging voltage and current that will reduce, as the internal battery voltage increases. It will start off a say 14.2 V and gradually reduce the voltage. Once the internal battery voltage and charging voltage are equal, NO CURRENT FLOWS. So although connected, nothing is happening charge wise. If there is an internal voltage change in the battery, the charger will increase the voltage and current to reach full charge, I have a CTEK that is connected to my mower when not in use 24/7. Also the Caterham has another type which has been on the battery for 10 years.

I spent 23 years in the industrial battery charger business, but have been retired for 5 years and there has been many improvements/changes to chargers.

[David_Long]

The problem is that gel batteries are different from acid filled batteries and the figures are not the same. So using a CCCV type charger that provides a float charge 14.2V for a lead acid battery is not ideal for a gel (if used continuously). See below from Odyssey technical info:

Charging with an A/C Powered Charger When used in cycling or stand-by power applications, an A/C powered charger can be used to recharge ODYSSEY AGM2 batteries. There are two main types of A/C powered battery chargers on the market: full recharging ability or maintaining a full SOC. In order to recharge a battery that has been discharged, it is best to use an automatic charger with an AGM setting that has the appropriate charge voltage and current per recommendations. For optimum charging, the current output should at least 40% of the battery’s C10 rating. This means a battery that has a 10-hour rating of 100 amp hours should be charged with 40 amps. Charge current should never be less than 10% of the battery’s C10 rating. Voltages higher than 15.0 volts will cause irreversible damage to the battery. Please refer to Figure 2 below for a graphical representation of the recommended charge profile for ODYSSEY AGM2 batteries used in non-starting applications. Chargers that are designed for maintaining a full SOC are often called “float” or “trickle” chargers and generally supply current in the 0.5 amp to 1.5 amp range. These chargers might also be called maintenance chargers and are often used to maintain batteries that are used in seasonal applications such as boats or RVs. These chargers are not suitable for recharging ODYSSEY AGM2 batteries that have been deeply discharged. However, they are suitable for maintaining batteries at a full state of charge, provided the float voltage setting is appropriate. The recommended float voltage for ODYSSEY AGM2 batteries is 13.6 volts for a 12-volt battery 77°F (25°C). There are also chargers available that charge using constant current. These chargers do not have multiple charge phases as shown above in Figure 2. They simply supply current to the battery which causes the battery voltage to rise. Once the battery voltage reaches the setpoint for a fully charged battery, the charging will terminate. How long it takes to charge a battery with this method depends on how deeply the battery is discharged and how much current the charger provides

[Jonathan Kay]

The Odyssey batteries used in Sevens are AGM type, not gel type.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery#Absorbent_glass_mat_(AGM)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery#Gel_battery

Jonathan

PS: Thanks for the voltages... I'll comment asap.

[Ray Pearce]

These two conflicting statements caught my eye

I also have not disconnected the car from the battery, everything is still connected.

 

I had connected the CTEK via the little snap adaptor that comes with it so that I screwed the two cables into the battery permanently

Are you sure that you didn't disturb the battery connections while adding the CTEK connector?

[David_Long]

Okay, point taken, let's substitute my reference to gel with VRLA, but both work in a similar way and comments are still relevant.

[Guy Lowe]

I must admit I thought the Odyssey batteries were gel, had one for 8 years and didn't know they were AGM.

THIS is worth a read.