Limited Slip Diff wear

[Bomba]

Hi, I have a 6 year old 360R with and LSD (BMW I think) and at a recent service was informed that the diff oil was black which indicated the wear in the carbon plates and it should be refurbished - not cheap.

The car has only done 8,000 miles and a few track days so it seems strange to me that the LSD should be failing so soon.

Any advice whether this is normal and should be done or is maybe over cautious and a bit of up-sell from Caterham South?

[SLR No.77]

Maybe make a cuppa and have a read of this thread.

 

[ScottR400D]

^^^ What he said..........

The thing is with a 360 there's a good chance that you'll be able to rebuild and won't have the kind of damage seen below (a 420 after less miles than you've done).

Once you've removed the diff, RRT are the people to rebuild. They'll fit sintered plates which will last better but be noisier.

The other option is clear in the thread you've been linked to.

Have you checked the preload?  
 

 

 

[Amos91]

Do it properly and get a Tracsport. 

No point even checking the preload, if the oil is really dark from the carbon it's best to get it stripped before it causes more abrasive damage. 

[BigCol]

Bomba I am sorry to hear you're the latest inductee of the FCD Club * 

You'll need more than a cup of tea to get through to the thread referred in #2. 

In modern parlance, TL;DR:
  It's not uncommon for carbon-plated Titan/BMW LSDs to go "open", sometimes after much less mileage than yours.
  Caterham knew it was an issue and went to sintered plates instead of carbon.  
  A rebuild or a Tracsport Diff is the way to go.  Neither are inexpensive.

 

 

* F'ed Caterham Diff 

[ScottR400D]

"A rebuild or a Tracsport Diff is the way to go.  Neither are inexpensive."
 

..........and only one appears to offer longevity. 

[Drakman]

My Titan LSD was RS when i bought the car, 2014 roadsport, at 13,000 KLM's.  I went for longevity of maintenance and purchased a Drexler diff from Ollie at RRT, long wait to get it though.

I have been told that Wavetrac make their ATB  to suit the BMW 168 now.  The wavetrac sounds like a great option for my use.  I wouldn't bother with the Quaife ATB in a Caterham though. Just my opinion.

O.S. Giken make a great looking LSD but I don't think they are available to suit the BMW 168 diff.

 

 

[Chris SSR400]

I've just been through exactly this. Took my diff out and went for the rebuild at RRT (amazing service from two great guys). I decided to do this as It's less than half the price of going Tracsport. I will say you can clearly see how much more robust the Tracsport is but so you'd expect for double the cost but i've also read stories of the similar degradation these are all serviceable parts at the end of the day. 

The most important thing in your decision is what are you going to be using the car for and how much are you going to use it. With my type of usage i was told i'd need to rebuild the diff (£450) every 4-7 years so even in 10-15 years time i still wont have spent Tracsport money. 

Time will tell how true this is and if it doesn't last then I can change it the next time 

[AristoCat]

Must admit, I went and switched my LSD diff to an open one - which I suspect will be fine for my driving use and style.

[ScottR400D]

#8 I'm sorry but little of that adds up. 
 

"I will say you can clearly see how much more robust the Tracsport is but so you'd expect for double the cost" 

A Titan diff is £1380 which is similar to the cost of a Tracsport. It seems odd to compare a rebuild cost with the cost of a new unit. In any case the rebuild of my Titan was over £900, 3 years ago, much more than 1/2 cost of a Tracsport.

"i've also read stories of the similar degradation these are all serviceable parts at the end of the day."

Several of us have now run the Tracsport for 3 years or more and 10k miles or more. None of us have seen any deterioration in performance or needed any servicing yet, let alone catastrophic failures that have been commonplace amongst Titans. I'd be interested in reading what you've seen, do you have a link? 

With my type of usage i was told i'd need to rebuild the diff (£450) every 4-7 years so even in 10-15 years time i still wont have spent Tracsport money. 

All of the cases I'm aware of, and it's quite a number, have (badly) failed between 3k and 8k miles and between 3 and 7 years. Your mileage must be very low to have confidence in only needing a basic regular refresh every 4-7 years. 

Most of the failures have, though, been in carbon plated units. The sintered plates quite possibly last longer and will work as you expect. But then you have to endure the noise they make, something that's not an issue with the Tracsport. I wasn't prepared to put up with the noise, you may be.  

I'm not suggesting you buy a Tracsport, it's up to each owner to make the choice, but what you've said just doesn't bear scrutiny, IMO. 
 

  

 

 

[ScottR400D]

#9 that makes sense if it works for you, and it's been fine for others I understand. 

[StevehS3]

I suppose we each decide what we want for our cars. The good thing here is that we are all aware of the facts. For me the option I didn't consider is investing more into a Titan. The unpleasant noise mine made took away some of the pleasure of driving the car on the road. Then there is the maintenance - I don't want to removing a diff very often and sending it away. So my decision was between Tracsport and an open diff. I bought a new open diff and fitted that based purely on cost and ease at the time but I would have chosen Tracsport if my car was higher powered or I was competing. 

[ScottR400D]

^^ I agree with all of that. 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

But then you have to endure the noise they make

Peter, my sintered plate unit makes no noticeable noise above that of the carbon plate unit (using Red Line 75w140 GL5 in both), which was not a significant amount of noise compared with other noises the car makes anyway. So far so good after my sintered plate rebuild with no change in preload, about 15 track days on it since then.

[Chris SSR400]

Mine with sintered plates isn't too noisy so far either using the RRT oil

[ScottR400D]

#14/15 I accept that some may not be too noisy, though the numbers of people who feel they are seems to far outweigh those who don't! IME.

I was never particularly aware of the noise with the carbon plates though I now realise they were probably well worn after only a few thousand miles which would have reduced the grunting and groaning at lower speeds that was quite extreme with new sintered plates. I have the sound files to prove it! 

Fitting the Tracsport put the noise into perspective. It doesn't make any noise that I can discern. There's still CWP chatter and the car is still noisy overall, of course.

I also think the Titan wasn't functioning properly for some time before it failed because the car is hugely more stable and predictable under power with the Tracsport than I can ever remember with the Titan though I know that people who have more experience than I do, say the Titan is very functional.

I tried a number of oils including RRT's and I can't say I saw much, if any, difference across them all. Of course, as I understand it, the oil cures a symptom of the issue, not the issue itself. 

The main problem for me with my original LSD was that it fell apart with less than 8k miles on it. 

I do wonder if the Titan was probably universally acceptable with the original carbon plates, giving acceptable noise levels and longevity. The change of carbon plate undoubtedly, IMO and E badly affected longevity and the subsequent change to sintered plates may have recovered that but has led to unacceptable noise levels for many. 

I would add that neither Titan nor CC seem to have huge confidence in the product or they wouldn't recommend the maintenance regime they do, though I am told that new or prospective owners aren't made aware of this during the buying process. 

 

 

 

 

[Amos91]

Titan recommends that the LSD is serviced every 12 months, race season, or every 10,000 road use miles. 

Not particularly inspiring!

[ScottR400D]

#17 where did you actually see that? I know they do (now) make that recommendation but I can't find it stated anywhere on their web site. Or CC's for that matter. 

[SteWi]

#18 Titan LSD Rebuild Kit

[ScottR400D]

Thanks for that; I only found their main website. 
 

Now, "every 12 months, race season, or every 10,000 road use miles."

Is that every 12 months or every 10,000 road use miles, whichever comes first or whichever is greater?

I'm aware of many that have failed well inside 10,000 miles on carbon plates but suppose it might be whichever is greater for sintered plates. 

[Geoff Brown]

This post almost got me going......again. But thankfully I am refraining from entering into any conversation as my original post says it all.

And yes the way forward is a personal informed choice. Caveat emptor !!

[K7 VCT]

Got mine swapped to. Quaife ATB unit, very happy f

With my choice after 2 years of use.

[Amos91]

Quaife is good 80-90% of the time, but lets itself down on track. I can turn it into an open diff at a number of tracks, particularly in tight corners where the inside tyre lifts a little. 

[7 wonders of the world]

A Quaife ATB offers very little in the way of performance upgraded comapred to an open diff.

An ATB compared to a properly engineered and set up plate LSD is night and day