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Li Ion batteries


Mucus72

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There are increasing numbers of motorbike batteries using Li ion that are really light. There is one on eBay right now which is 775g. Versus about 8kg for a Banner. This is serious weight loss. What is the advice here if any of you have experience please?

 

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There's a lot on this in the archives. My summary:

  1. There are now several happy Members. They seem to work fine in 7s and cold weather (by UK standards) hasn't been a problem.
  2. They're very light and very expensive.

I'd be prepared to fit one, but don't think they're worth it... yet. I'd be very wary of one that didn't have known provenance and previous reports.

Jonathan

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Thanks JK. Some of these batteries are in the price range of £75-£100. I’d say that’s amazing price for a considerable weight loss. More and more seem to be flooding into the market. Feedback I’ve had for cold starts is to prewarm by turning on your headlights for a bunch of seconds first. I’d also want a slick bracket/clamp for it. 

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Thanks JK. Some of these batteries are in the price range of £75-£100. I’d say that’s amazing price for a considerable weight loss. More and more seem to be flooding into the market. Feedback I’ve had for cold starts is to prewarm by turning on your headlights for a bunch of seconds first. I’d also want a slick bracket/clamp for it. 

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What do people make of this product:

http://www.kitcardirect.co.uk/ultrabatt-lithium-battery-728-grams.html

I couldn’t see any technical data for the battery.  Jonathan, could you advise on what Ah battery one would need for a 2.0l Duratec fitted with a isolator/battery master switch? Occasional weekend/dry weather use, currently stored in the garage over the winter and fired up for a short run up to temp about once a month.

Kind regards,

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I don't have a good answer, but let's see if we can creep up on that.

But first the warnings:

  1. The two widely quoted figures represent the amount of energy deliverable from the battery, typically measured in Ah (happy to argue about units and whether this is "energy" or "charge"), and the maximum current that can be delivered eg at cranking, typically measured in A. But I don't think that the way these are measured is particularly consistent between manufacturers, I have never seen an independent test for this sort of battery, and at least two suppliers actually use incorrect (rather then merely deprecated) units. 
  2. Current drain at rest varies considerably between 7s. And some 7s live on *conditioning chargers, some have isolator switches, and some use nothing at all: this is crucial when considering how much energy needs to be stored and Andrew has worked through some of the numbers.

Here goes:

  1. The Magneti Marelli MM-ION-15 is rated at 32 Ah and 540 A cranking.
  2. The Varley Lithium Li5 is rated at 5.5 Ah and 335 A cranking.
  3. What battery do Caterham fit for your sort of Duratec? I'll then look up the spec for that.

Jonathan

​* Some conditioning chargers now claim to be optimised for lithium batteries, but I don't know how much this matters.

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Thanks for looking into this Jonathan... My car currently has a Banner battery fitted, although I can’t get you the current spec as I’m out of the country at present but will be able to look soon.  The car is a 2009 R500 Duratec however I’m not the first owner, I purchased it in September 2017 from Caterham as an approved used Seven.

If there are any recommended batteries for a reasonable price I’d consider swapping to something lighter in mass, just so long as it is a suitable spec and can be securely held in place.

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The Magneti Marelli MM-ION-15 is rated at 32 Ah and 540 A cranking.
The Varley Lithium Li5 is rated at 5.5 Ah and 335 A cranking.

Skyrich YT9B-BS / HJT9B-FP-S: 15 Ah, 190A.
JMT Lithium Ion Battery HJTX20H-FP: 7 Ah, 420 A.

The storage capacity on the Varley and Skyrich look low. Any experiences in practice, please, with details of how the 7 is kept, see post #6? (Thanks, Oliver.)

Jonathan

PS: To the tune of "If I had a Hammer"... "If we had a wiki... "

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Dear All

Happy New year to All

On the subject of batteries, my Banner "Starting Bull" 12v 30ah battery has decided to give up the ghost, after 5/6 years and was wondering what recommendations you would have for a replacement. My 7 is a Super 7 K series 1600.

Would welcome your suggestions and recommendation, and any website to buy from.

Thank you

SAJC (Simon)

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Hi Jonathan - thanks for your prompt reply, my 7 battery is isolated, discounted and yes for long periods , but this is the first time , battery was charged before and started, this time battery charged and it didn't start, as it just died when turned the ignition over.

Simon

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've got a cheap-ish Li Ion in my car. My master swich is a Brise relay and if I forget it on, the car won't start. Otherwise it turns so fast that I was almost scared first time I tried.

Could be this https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Lithium-Ion-Motorcycle-Battery-for-KTM-Rc8-R-2009-and-Onwards-LIPO14B/1260147138?iid=122210984733&_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49138%26meid%3Dbefd0220500f4d0185fde8663909706e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D172442365296&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

It's correct that the capacity isn't huge, but as long as your alternator is up for the job it's not a problem.

My car is maninly used on track, but when it's on the road the lights are always on (Legal requirement here). I rarely use the heated windscreen/wipers as the car has an aeroscreen but on the other hand the alternator is smaller than standard so I would think you'd be OK. Of course when the alternator fails (not if, they do!) then you are worse off with a 6Ah battery than with a 30Ah though they have the same cranking capability.

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The Magneti Marelli MM-ION-15 is rated at 32 Ah and 540 A cranking.

The Varley Lithium Li5 is rated at 5.5 Ah and 335 A cranking.

But the Varley Li5 Simon Rogers recommends on his Meteor Motorsport site is apparently suitable for Caterhams running Duratecs. 

The 3rd dimension here is weight.  

 

Daniel French i: http://www.caterhamr500.co.uk/2016/11/15kg-10ah-lifepo4-battery-inc-carbon.html

He provides 2 option suggestions, a 7.5Ah battery for lower powered cars and a 10Ah one for high end Duratecs.

This weigh in at 1.2Kg and 1.5KG respectively.

In summary:

Varley - 1.1 kg 5Ah

Magenti - 2kg 32Ah

DF option 1: 1.2kg 7.5Ah

DF option 2: 1.5kg 10Ah

What I am looking for is the lightest battery that will work for track days and the odd weekend away blatting, which will start a max of 5 times a day. A few cranks to warm things up (or the headlights on for a few secodns first) doesnt bother me.

I just don't know now if the 5Ah Varley is too low a capacity?

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What I am looking for is the lightest battery that will work for track days and the odd weekend away blatting, which will start a max of 5 times a day.

Will the battery live on a charger when the 7 isn't being used? Is the current drain low when it isn't being used and not on the charger? Does the 7 start well?

If all of those are the case the energy storage might not be too important... 

Jonathan

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  • 6 months later...

I fitted a lithium battery to my 7, (Yamaha R1 ), only a few months ago. It normally kept on lithium specific smart charger, but recently left it off for a couple of days. Seems I have a parasitic discharge going on, that flattened the battery in that time. 

I think I've found the culprit ( self canceling indicator unit ), but the battery now won't hold a charge!

As once as they go flat they're knackered. 

 

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