The reasons that I resurrected this subject after seeing the innards of my Titan at SPC are:
The Titan is not fit for purpose - especially in higher output cars.
It is poor by design with inherent weaknesses.
Who wants to have to regularly drop the diff to have the Titan refreshed. 'Regular' of course is time to service or failure based on usage & mileage.
Caterham do not make it clear to customers the in service limits of the Titan to avoid what some owners have experienced. Of course this advice is elsewhere but Caterham as the end supplier have failed in their duty to the customer.
Caterham & others are keeping the lid on the problem to avoid out cry or even litigation.
To avoid heart ache & expense I would encourage those with a BMW LSD & output above 200 bhp to listen to the diff & carry out the simple wheel spin check irrespective of mileage.
If there is a need to refresh a Titan why spend £600 + incidentals to do so when periodically the damn thing has to come out again for a service. Better to pay £1100 + VAT + incidentals for SPC to fit a far superior unit with the expectation that it may not see the light of day for many many years & miles.
I would agree with all that Geoff and add a recommendation to fit a magnetic filler plug which will hopefully collect any bits of breaking Belleville and other steel particles and prevent possible CWP damage as well as indicate level of wear.
The problem is that 10 years ago everyone was saying how awful the ZF and Quaife were, and the best thing since sliced bread was the new Titan (which I believe Road and Race had a lot to do with both the development and promotion) . I suspect if you choose to use a plate diff you will need to service it on a regular basis irrespective of what you might be told when you buy it - that's the nature of a plate diff.
I have a new car on order (420R) and I'm so concerned about the titan problems that I'm considering having an SPC diff fitted asap after taking delivery. I understand you can't drive the car in to Tracsport as they don't do the job on the car so as I can't do this myself I'll have to pay someone to take it off and then reinstall.
Having read the numerous threads previously on this subject I decided recently to have my LSD rebuilt by Road & Race. I had been concerned about the state of my Titan in a 360R (180hp). The car kit was supplied 2015, with only 3000 miles and 5 Track Days on the clock. I was worried about noises and what I thought was too much slack in the drive train.
Road and Race replaced the carbon plates for sintered although as it turned out all internals were only moderately worn. Now I have found the drive to be harsh & even more noisy when not pushing along (we cant push all the time on the road).
As an experienced engineer I find it difficult to understand why CC could not find a LSD to fit which was fit for purpose ie both on the road and track. After all LSDs are a piece of established technology in a very light weight and therefore lowish stress application.
It has cost me more than £800 pounds so far and I'm not happy with the results. I will be following this and any further threads with great interest.
Just for reference, all Titan LSD CC supplied since 2018 (ish) have been fitted with the sintered internals. Since you have the car on order I assume you have test driven a 420R and are aware of the noise the sintered internal make when not pushed. If you haven't then I would advise booking a test drive to satisfy your worries. Ensure the car you drive has a sintered LSD, and resist the temptation to put your foot down, consider driving as if you were running it in.
As for the other important question, sintered Titan internals have only been fitted since 2018, meaning the life expectancy is unknown. To a certain extent thats also true for the SPC diff because its also new. A comment was made earlier in this thread that the Titan was considered a wonder replacement a few years back. BUT there is a simple test procedure outlined on this site to gauge the life of your diff. You will be able to monitor your diff from new and thus get the maximum out of what CC supplied.
Basically panic not. I am in the same boat, my 420R has only been on the road since August, I will monitor my sintered Titan diff, and decided to replace or rebuild when the time comes. In the mean time I will enjoy the car for what it is.
There also seems to have been a change in the carbon plate composition or manufacture at some point, as anecdotally those of us with older R400Ds seem to have had less problems with the carbon plates (mine is a 2012) than more recent cars.
As regards the timing of sintered plate introduction, perhaps this may help.
I ordered my kit 360 in December 2017. At that time the carbon plated LSD was standard but my order was noted that a sintered plate diff was required. I was advised, in early 2018 that sintered would likely be standard from around March 2018.
I don't think the reliability is anything to do with being BMW or Ford, so swapping to a Ford casting with a Titan LSD with carbon plates might solve nothing. According to Titan, the plates are the same between the two units.
The reasons that I resurrected this subject after seeing the innards of my Titan at SPC are:
The Titan is not fit for purpose - especially in higher output cars.
It is poor by design with inherent weaknesses.
Who wants to have to regularly drop the diff to have the Titan refreshed. 'Regular' of course is time to service or failure based on usage & mileage.
Caterham do not make it clear to customers the in service limits of the Titan to avoid what some owners have experienced. Of course this advice is elsewhere but Caterham as the end supplier have failed in their duty to the customer.
Caterham & others are keeping the lid on the problem to avoid out cry or even litigation.
To avoid heart ache & expense I would encourage those with a BMW LSD & output above 200 bhp to listen to the diff & carry out the simple wheel spin check irrespective of mileage.
If there is a need to refresh a Titan why spend £600 + incidentals to do so when periodically the damn thing has to come out again for a service. Better to pay £1100 + VAT + incidentals for SPC to fit a far superior unit with the expectation that it may not see the light of day for many many years & miles.
I would agree with all that Geoff and add a recommendation to fit a magnetic filler plug which will hopefully collect any bits of breaking Belleville and other steel particles and prevent possible CWP damage as well as indicate level of wear.
The problem is that 10 years ago everyone was saying how awful the ZF and Quaife were, and the best thing since sliced bread was the new Titan (which I believe Road and Race had a lot to do with both the development and promotion) . I suspect if you choose to use a plate diff you will need to service it on a regular basis irrespective of what you might be told when you buy it - that's the nature of a plate diff.
I have a new car on order (420R) and I'm so concerned about the titan problems that I'm considering having an SPC diff fitted asap after taking delivery. I understand you can't drive the car in to Tracsport as they don't do the job on the car so as I can't do this myself I'll have to pay someone to take it off and then reinstall.
Having read the numerous threads previously on this subject I decided recently to have my LSD rebuilt by Road & Race. I had been concerned about the state of my Titan in a 360R (180hp). The car kit was supplied 2015, with only 3000 miles and 5 Track Days on the clock. I was worried about noises and what I thought was too much slack in the drive train.
Road and Race replaced the carbon plates for sintered although as it turned out all internals were only moderately worn. Now I have found the drive to be harsh & even more noisy when not pushing along (we cant push all the time on the road).
As an experienced engineer I find it difficult to understand why CC could not find a LSD to fit which was fit for purpose ie both on the road and track. After all LSDs are a piece of established technology in a very light weight and therefore lowish stress application.
It has cost me more than £800 pounds so far and I'm not happy with the results. I will be following this and any further threads with great interest.
O.G.
Just for reference, all Titan LSD CC supplied since 2018 (ish) have been fitted with the sintered internals. Since you have the car on order I assume you have test driven a 420R and are aware of the noise the sintered internal make when not pushed. If you haven't then I would advise booking a test drive to satisfy your worries. Ensure the car you drive has a sintered LSD, and resist the temptation to put your foot down, consider driving as if you were running it in.
As for the other important question, sintered Titan internals have only been fitted since 2018, meaning the life expectancy is unknown. To a certain extent thats also true for the SPC diff because its also new. A comment was made earlier in this thread that the Titan was considered a wonder replacement a few years back. BUT there is a simple test procedure outlined on this site to gauge the life of your diff. You will be able to monitor your diff from new and thus get the maximum out of what CC supplied.
Basically panic not. I am in the same boat, my 420R has only been on the road since August, I will monitor my sintered Titan diff, and decided to replace or rebuild when the time comes. In the mean time I will enjoy the car for what it is.
My detailed build blog
https://caterham420detailedbuildblog.co.uk/
There also seems to have been a change in the carbon plate composition or manufacture at some point, as anecdotally those of us with older R400Ds seem to have had less problems with the carbon plates (mine is a 2012) than more recent cars.
James
As regards the timing of sintered plate introduction, perhaps this may help.
I ordered my kit 360 in December 2017. At that time the carbon plated LSD was standard but my order was noted that a sintered plate diff was required. I was advised, in early 2018 that sintered would likely be standard from around March 2018.
Pete C
Given the reliability problems then, how difficult is it to change out the BMW diff completely and go back to the Ford item?
I don't think the reliability is anything to do with being BMW or Ford, so swapping to a Ford casting with a Titan LSD with carbon plates might solve nothing. According to Titan, the plates are the same between the two units.
My detailed build blog
https://caterham420detailedbuildblog.co.uk/