BDR Dry sump pan removal - Solved (not trivial! But it is now with a mod.)

[anthonym]

edit after solved: If I had known then what I know now, I would have started with the bellhousing bolts and the black plate "drop". If I can find a way to do it I will cut the uncut side of the plate so that in future removing the sump pan will be trivial. That black "dirt protector" plate is supposed to be cut on both sides to make it easy to remove without all the effort listed in my post #18 https://www.caterhamlotus7.club/comment/2401870#comment-2401870

and my o p was:

ok it has been on as far as I know for 35 years. Maybe it's just glued itself as it were.

How do I get it off?

Seems like I will have to prise it with something. How to do this without damaging me or the car? I can buy practically any tool from a tool gold mine I found nearby (ish).

There was me thinking it would simply drop like the last one I did.

Anthony

[anthonym]

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Engine+Transmission+Oil+Pan+Separator+Tool&atb=v322-1&ia=web

So the idea is... to have a nice large surface to hit with a (lump) hammer, one that has a suitable chisel like for this purpose kind of edge.

Once "in" then force it horizontally along. Hmm

[SM25T]

I would consider a block of wood against one side of sump and hit that with a club hammer. Do make sure all of the bolts are removed first though !

[mikestifel]

definitely make sure all of the bolts are out, the two in the back are pretty well hidden.  a few good whacks with a soft faced dead blow hammer should get it moving.

[anthonym]

No effect with hammer(s).

However, this sharp scraper tool allowed me to laboriously release one inch at a time. No hammers just muscle in very awkward positions. 
Not dropped it yet but there can't be much left holding it.

Yes end bolts hidden and not very easy. I will be checking again : might count how many I have and compare to the holes in a new one. 
 

[anthonym]

I don't know if Geoff ( builder) used any sort of adhesive. He was a non practising aircraft engineer so I expect belt as well as braces,

 

 

 

s or c ? 

[7 wonders of the world]

use a 1" wood chhisel in several plces to break the seal and ease it away

[anthonym]

I tried that. No angle for the hammer. But the above worked, same idea by by hand, no hammer.

I don't know why it is still hard fixed, except the U shape at each end has not had any unsticking attention . Ideas welcome :-)

[anthonym]

and thank you for the hidden bolts warning. Sure enough I found two more 

My scrawl says

Removing the starter allows access to remove this passenger side bolt. But there is no access to the driver's side one. 
and

This black plate is gripped by 7 bolts. 

 

[SM25T]

Sump off now then ?

[anthonym]

No. Another bolt is hidden with no access

[Ian Macquarie]

If you are fortunate and the original assembler followed the guide, the plate between engine and gearbox will have been cut so that if the starter motor, two bolts at the bottom of the bell housing and one 1/4" ? on R/h side (looking forward) are removed then the bottom half of the plate can be removed thus giving access to the two most rearward bolts on the sump.

[Ian Macquarie]

Fig 10.4.4 in the 1990 assembly guide shows the position of the cuts in the plate - now I've checked, removal of the 1/4" bolt may not be necessary.

[anthonym]

It was re assembled last year. I have asked the assembler what he has done. .Interesting that CC were well aware of this problem. Thanks. 

[anthonym]

Meanwhile; I have removed all but the top two bellhousing bolts and the 10mm. Plate isn't dropping out, though that would have been a pleasant surprise. 
I have noticed now I can bend the plate inwards and get sight of the hidden bolt. Left it there for the night to ponder. Just maybe I can get the 11mm 1/4 drive on to it using a "wigly" extension (I forget the term). Though replacing it would be difficult and the same for the other one of the two if this plate is in situ. 
 

Maybe I can make the required cuts myself. Awkward though. Dremel? Now that I know where based on the bolts remaining to hold it in.

[anthonym]

Ok so extracted the bolt by using the flat of a long screwdriver to push the bolt round, it was not tight at all. The second pic is celebratory. However still cannot remove the now loose sump pan. 

 

[anthonym]

duplicate

[anthonym]

It's off!!

[anthonym]

ok so from where we were in the above. All this ASSUMES the dirt protector has NOT been cut on both sides to the bottom half is easy to remove without any of this being necessary. Mine is cut on one side, but not the other (why oh why?!!)

remove all bellhousing bolts including the 1/4" (10mm)

using a suitable lever, in my case a three foot long flathead screwdriver and a lump hammer, separate a bit the bellhousing from the engine on both sides, so about half way up, leaving said screwdriver in place (so two of them). 

A small gap will have opened at top of bellhousing to engine.

I used a 32mm spanner as a crowbar to open further, inserted 27mm spanner to keep the space open, keeping the 32mm for crow barring. 

Two further large spanners as spacers where the two screwdrivers were, having opened a little further. Find where the two "lugs" are one on each side on to which is hooked the black "dirt protector" plate. Note that when opening the spaces at the side, make sure the black plate is being pushed OFF the lug on each side, not on to them. 

Now a sharp tap with hammer/screwdriver on the top edge of the black place and it moves downwards.

Assuming the jack is not near the front end of the sump pan (preventing forward movement of it), lift sump off with a slide forward and down action.

Retreat for tea.

Anthony

If I had know then what I know now, I would have started with the bellhousing bolts and the black plate "drop". If I can find a way to do it I will cut the uncut side of the plate so that in future removing the sump pan will be trivial.

 

[anthonym]

and to cut the second cut nothing worked except a wood chisel and lump hammer

so tools used of tried (some but not all) in this saga that was supposed to be trivial to do, must have taken me a week at least feels like forever 

[rkeywood]

It was re assembled last year. I have asked the assembler what he has done. .Interesting that CC were well aware of this problem. Thanks. 

Surely the issue here is the assembler was unfamiliar with the need to modify the sandwich plate to allow easy sump removal in situ or was happy enough to pull the engine to remove the sump. The engine / gearbox assembly is the standard Ford arrangement designed for the Escort etc not the 7 and sump removable was pretty low on their priorities. If you do the job on an Escort you've got the chassis crossmember and steering rack to take off before thinking about the sump. The Ford sandwich plate is cut on one side as standard and the 'work around' to weld this cut and cut both sides to allow the bottom section to be removed has been around longer than CC who helpfully include the details in their build manual.

[anthonym]

"The Ford sandwich plate is cut on one side as standard "

THAT explains everything I was wondering about. Thanks - anthony

edit: the bellhousing was not removed during the Arch chassis refurb and rebuild

The sump pan bolts are 1/4" x 1/2" UNC (Coarse thread). Originals have hex heads I plan to change them to cap heads (allen keys) which I will find easier. 
 

https://www.caterhamlotus7.club/comment/2401922#comment-2401922

from rkeywood with my thanks

"You don't need sealant on either gasket type (if you use too much sealant on the laminate gasket it negates it 'self sealing' nature) but for ease of install I've always stuck the gasket to the sump with a thin smear of RTV (Wurth Super but any will do) and left overnight upsidedown on a flat surface with a heavy weight on top. Then fit without sealant on the block side and threadlock on a new set of screws torqued to 5 ft lbs initially and then 10 ft lbs final."

and Nigel Blandin

"Don't forget to "diagonally cycle" around the bolt pattern to get an even mating surface".

[Nigel Blandin]

Agreed on the lack of sealant.

 

Don't forget to "diagonally cycle" around the bolt pattern to get an even mating surface.

 

[anthonym]

thanks #22 updated