Toyo 888 or ZZSs for class 3?

[Stevecaterham7]

Apologies for a question which I'm sure is a can of worms, but tried search and was still a bit confused.

Next year will be my first year back in class 3 after a long time out. I'm only looking to learn the ropes again not worry about every 10th in the car yet. 

I've currently got 888s on the car but a chance to buy some wheels with ZZSs on. Should I go with the Avon's for all races (as I gather they're good in the wet as well) or use Toyos in the dry and swap to ZZSs if it's wet.

is there much in it between the 2?

[Dobson_justin]

(Almost) Everyone in the class uses ZZS, and it helps keeps a level playing field.  You are right, they are good in wet and dry, so it saves having to carry spare wheels around.

The 888's are on the 1B list so are ok from a regulation perspective but I could not advise on the difference between the two, but I would recommend ZZS. 

[Stevecaterham7]

Thanks for the reply. Are there any different compounds of ZZS or are they all the same? Just need to know if I need to check anything on Saturday when I go to look at the wheels and tyres.,,

[Dobson_justin]

Good point on compounds. There are two it seems on the Caterham website, but only 1 will be correct for us. One is a softer compound I think - but hopefully someone will come along with some advice on that as I want to know too, before I buy a new set.

[Richard Price]

ZZS's are available in a compound (RT7) specifically for race use in wet weather. However, the Avon suggest that the RT7 compound is list 1c rather than the required list 1b for class 3.

There is actually a misprint in the 2021 blue book. It lists "ZZR RT7" in list 1c, and should read "ZZS RT7".

[david nelson]

Richard, sorry can you clarify the compound that is OK for class 3. You post has confused me, although it does not take a lot for me to be confused

 

Thanks David

[Richard Price]

David,

The 13" road legal (list 1b) ZZS's are product codes 7718 and 7719  for the 185 and 215 sizes. See here:-https://caterhamparts.co.uk/98-zzs

The EU labels can be seen on the links from the chart at the bottom of this page here :- https://www.avontyres.com/en-gb/tyres/zzs?cartype=motorsport

[david nelson]

Richard thanks know understand.

What is the life expectance in competition. Are they a one season tyre or do they continue to give performance?

[Richard Price]

David,

the tyres I used to set a new class record at Loton this year were three and four years old.

The oldest we're still good enough to sell on as legal road tyres!

I bought a new set mid season, but I wouldn't say they are noticeably different in performance to the old set.

 

[david nelson]

Richard

Thanks for that. I will be driving to events next year so its good that it looks as if they last. 

[robj]

Hi Steve,

 

I think your suggestion of competitors needing two sets of tyres to be competitive is exactly what most competitors would like to avoid, due to cost (an additional set of wheels an tyres would cost about the same as a season of entry fees) and in addition feeling the need to change suspension setup for different tyres. Currently we have a gentleman’s agreement in Class 3 that we all run on Avon ZZSs. This has leveled the playing field, and in general is well respected.

I, and I believe, several others have suggested changing the regs to read something like:

"For Class 1 and 2 the recommended tyre is YOKO A539, for classes 3 and 4 the recommended tyre is Avon ZZS. To obtain class awards at individual events any MSUK List 1A or List 1B permitted tyre can be used in class 1 and 2, and class 3 and 4 respectively, however, to score championship points the recommended tyres must be used, and the championship scores will be awarded relative to the fastest driver who is using the recommended tyres. "

Note, this does not preclude a newcomer to the dabbling with whatever tyres they have on their car, just if they want to get serious then they would need to buy the recommended tyre. 

The aim is remove the risk of a costly and unnecessary tyre war [which would put off some current and possibly some new competitors] and ensure that the awards decided against PBs and records are not won by a new tyre advantage. 

It would seem unfair given how the championship, Edward Lewis etc. are decided to have a class (or two) where everyone in that class suddenly goes significantly faster due to a tyre change. It would mean great performances in other classes would not stand a chance. For instance if a substantially better list 1A was found then the championship would realistically only be between class 1 and 2, do we want to fall into a situation like that?

[Alan Bowler]

(my personal opinion)

The suggestion to write gentlemen's agreements on tyres into the rules has been made several times over the years. I strongly oppose it. MSUK provide tyre lists 1A, 1B,1C and we align to them, along with all the other UK speed championships I am aware of.

1. We don't control the spec. of our cars, and have the simplest rules (generaly BHP + tyre list) that we can to keep things as inclusive as possible. Priority is to encourage new entrants. Our championship slowly dies without new people joining. Like many if not most, when I started I took advice that there was a class for my car, don't change anything (other than get an FIA bar, a timing strut and some yellow tape) and just have a go. I figured I would win easily as I am a driving god. If I had been told "your tyres aren't the right ones - they are perhaps too good but we don't really know, we'll tolerate you dabbling, but you won't score points" I wouldn't have bothered. Also, if I'd had to pay for a new set of too sticky or less sticky tyres, I would not have bothered.

3. A new set of ZZS tyres is expensive. Some choose to run on others is List 1B, including 888s, in part to save some money. Lets not tell them they can't score points.

4. ZZS won't be available forever, or might move off list 1B - who knows. There is already a new 1C compound. We don't want to have to study tyres at the end of each season, argue over which is best, change the rules etc. 

5. Many spend thousands on optimising their engines for max torque curves and allowed BHP limit, reducing weight, fitting after market dampers etc. Developing your car alongside your driving talent (or in my case to compensate for lack of talent) is part of the sport and part of the club. We have different engines in each class. We don't restrict other modifications. Why restrict tyres beyond the MSUK rules?

6. If someone was rich and daft enough, they'd probably have new tyres for every event, or maybe experiment with shaved new ones for dry and deep tread for wet. Do we try to ban this too? Again, part of the sport. 

7. Class 3 seems very healthy as it is.

8. I survived the class 2 tyre wars, Stunners, AD08s, 539s, 15" & 13" wheels. I bought and sold used wheels - it didn't cost much. It made close to zero difference in my times. The best driver won because of their talent, not because of the marginal difference between the best tyres on the MSUK List 1A. I strongly suspect its the same for List 1B. 

(end of rant  )

[Stevecaterham7]

I feel I've opened an old can of worms here, so apologies.

I'll be swapping to ZZSs so that I'm aligned with the rest of the class 3 runners. There is a cost to change, but then I don't need 2 sets of wheels and I may be able to get a bit for my Toyos, so cost won't be too ridiculous.

 

[david nelson]

Steve

 

I will be looking at all tyres, doing back to back testing find my preferred tyres for the hills, sprints and lets not forget the wet. so that 3 sets min, also will need a practice set for each , so now 6 sets. 

 

[Stevecaterham7]

And that right there is one of the (many!) reasons while you'll always beat me David! I'll sling some tyres on and keep turning up, giving it a crack and see what happens. I think I focus too much on the sitting around, drinking coffee and chatting, and not enough on how to go quicker each time.

Maybe next year I'll tune into that side of it more, or perhaps Ben (my son and dual driver,) will do that bit.

[Simon.Rogers]

I think tyres should always be open to choice. Open and inclusive to all.

I understand the gentleman's agreement but then as Alan pointed out above others spend lots more on engine or practice or even competing at more events.  Some even buy special dampers!  Who would have thought.

I am not sure I could compete on the ZZS if I knew there was another tyre legal but faster.  It is a race after all where we should all use every effort to go as fast as possible.

[TRP]

The only tyres I think anyone needed to worry about was the Extreme vr2's that I tried. These have now been moved to list 1c in the soft compounds, so I don't see the need to add regulations that may deter people.